Omnivore > Pescatarian > Vegan

[wizardling]

Hello everyone!

I'm new to the vegan journey and am feeling more motivated than ever to fully transition to a vegan diet. It started for me in 2020 when my partner and I decided to stop eating beef for environmental reasons. Then, the more we observed cows and talked about animal experience, refusing beef became less of a climate decision and more of an ethical one—clearly, these animals are just as sentient and individual as my beloved cat, and I wouldn't eat HER, so why eat them?

From there I transitioned into not eating mammals, but was fine with poultry, fish, and dairy if I believed they came from a reputable source (or, you know, if I was just at a restaurant). I figured this would be a happy enough place for me, and it's definitely not a difficult diet to follow. That changed again after reading Jonathan Safran Foer's book "Eating Animals" a few weeks ago, and after I did my own research into the dairy industry. Learning that almost all poultry species are genetic mutants incapable of living without suffering really rocked me. Even if it were possible for farmers to let chickens live their lives and express their innate chicken-ness, these poor creatures can't walk, can't mate, can't fly, can't even exist without constant pain. And when I realized the dairy industry basically IS the meat industry but worse, and that it was true that dairy cattle must be perpetually impregnated, I again couldn't imagine a form of dairy that allowed the cows to live without suffering. I thought this was all "PETA propaganda" until I finally found reputable journalistic and scientific sources. I'm ashamed at having been so afraid of looking at my complicity until now.

I'll admit that fish suffering is harder to connect to. My partner fly and spear fishes and we eat what he catches. But he kills them quickly, and it's only a very small few—but that's not at all how industrial fishing works. Bycatch and trawling are enough reasons to stop eating certain fish caught in a certain way, but even the "best" fish caught with the "best" practices are still left to die slow deaths by the thousands, and our demand for fish flesh is collapsing entire marine ecologies.

So here I am now, doing my best to phase out eggs, dairy and fish. I'm finding it very difficult to phase out incidental dairy (like in baked goods or my favorite junk food) and sushi. I'm also frustrated that vegan options in most restaurants are so poor in protein; sometimes they don't have a significant source of protein included at all! Eating out has become a real challenge. I also feel less certain about mollusks and small fish like anchovies...

In the non-food realm, I'm struggling with wool, silk, leather, and honey. I have a really hard time getting behind vinyl and plastic vegan leathers, and wool is a critical material for me as an outdoorsperson. My shampoo/conditioner also has keratin in it, and that is going to be quite hard to let go of! And is harvesting honey harming bees? Shouldn't we be trying to sustain bee populations? I haven't gotten to those modules yet and I'm looking forward to learning more.

Anyway, not sure how active this forum is but thanks to anyone reading this. This is all pretty new to me and I'll appreciate any support I can get!

[Naomi3]

I also find it super difficult to find good vegan food when eating out. While cooking vegan at home is easy (just substitute the animal products), there are only 2 or 3 restaurants near me that have any vegan food at all, and most of it is not good to eat on its own as a meal (no protein!!)
As for fish, I used to not really relate to their pain or have much empathy for them... until I started keeping aquariums with my own fish. Having pet fish that you care for and try to keep healthy really makes you feel like they're creatures deserving love, like any other animal.

[wizardling]

I also find it super difficult to find good vegan food when eating out. While cooking vegan at home is easy (just substitute the animal products), there are only 2 or 3 restaurants near me that have any vegan food at all, and most of it is not good to eat on its own as a meal (no protein!!)
As for fish, I used to not really relate to their pain or have much empathy for them... until I started keeping aquariums with my own fish. Having pet fish that you care for and try to keep healthy really makes you feel like they're creatures deserving love, like any other animal.

Ugh, I know! The struggle for good vegan food out is real. I feel like even vegan restaurants underestimate how much protein there needs to be...you just need so much more by volume when it's a plant source.

That makes so much sense to me about fish. I was thinking about this recently because I love watching bird webcams and you really get to see their personalities and individuality come out when you actually get a chance to spend more time observing them. I suspected fish would be the same—I'm sure they play, have desires and goals, and aversions just the way we do. Maybe I need to find some ocean webcams!

[Liam Gentile]

Hey wizardling,

Thanks for sharing your story!

It's great that you have been continuing to inform yourself and challenge the ethics of consuming animal products.

It's not abnormal that it's harder for you to emotionally connect to fishes, indeed they are more physically distant from humans than mammals, for example. However, what we should be focusing on is that fishes are sentient like other animals - they feel pain and experience emotions.

The definition of humane is "having or showing compassion or benevolence". How can it be compassionate to kill someone needlessly who does not want to die? For example, if someone walked up to you and shot you in the head, you would likely die instantly - but would you consider that humane? I certainly wouldn't.

As far as all the animal products you mention, I think as you continue to learn about these industries you will see that they too are cruel and unnecessary, and you will feel more motivated to abstain from consuming from them.

For me it's helpful to remember that our usage of non-human animals is fundamentally oppressive, making the nuances and levels of cruelty less relevant to the necessity to abstain. We shouldn't consume animal products because they are inherently exploitative - it always involves someone who doesn't want to be harmed who is being harmed needlessly. Remembering this broken and unequal relationship can make it easier to see being Vegan as a default baseline, rather than a lofty end goal.

With all that being said, I want to encourage you to keep going and keep learning. And, welcome to Vegan Bootcamp!


Some videos you may want to watch:

For why vegans don't eat honey you might find this video from Earthling Ed informative: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clMNw_VO1xo.

You may also find this video on non-human animals used in fashion useful (also by Earthling Ed): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RE2mhaoUNaE.

[wizardling]

Thanks so much Liam! I just finished the Honey course and appreciate the thoughtful arguments shared there. I'll admit that I'm still not fully convinced that insects experience suffering or other neurological/embodied phenomena (like ego) as we do. Throughout this journey I've been sort of nosing the boundaries of anthropomorphism and considering whether my decisions come from respect for other beings without conflating their experiences with that of humans, or without requiring them to behave or respond in ways that I relate to. Still, I'm finding that it is the capacity to suffer, in all the ways that word is freighted with meaning, that ultimately compels my desire to be vegan. Can insects suffer? I'm not sure, and it's clear that we broadly aren't sure either.

That being said, I'm also not fully convinced that that precludes them from deserving compassion and reducing the possibility of suffering anyway. And certainly the ecological impacts of industrial honey production are compelling arguments themselves—exploitation can exist where suffering doesn't. Honey is easy enough to substitute so I'm fine with avoiding it, I just find it a much weaker argument and am noticing that I'm not currently able to connect to it emotionally as I can with other tenets of veganism.

[Liam Gentile]

Thanks so much Liam! I just finished the Honey course and appreciate the thoughtful arguments shared there. I'll admit that I'm still not fully convinced that insects experience suffering or other neurological/embodied phenomena (like ego) as we do. Throughout this journey I've been sort of nosing the boundaries of anthropomorphism and considering whether my decisions come from respect for other beings without conflating their experiences with that of humans, or without requiring them to behave or respond in ways that I relate to. Still, I'm finding that it is the capacity to suffer, in all the ways that word is freighted with meaning, that ultimately compels my desire to be vegan. Can insects suffer? I'm not sure, and it's clear that we broadly aren't sure either.

That being said, I'm also not fully convinced that that precludes them from deserving compassion and reducing the possibility of suffering anyway. And certainly the ecological impacts of industrial honey production are compelling arguments themselves—exploitation can exist where suffering doesn't. Honey is easy enough to substitute so I'm fine with avoiding it, I just find it a much weaker argument and am noticing that I'm not currently able to connect to it emotionally as I can with other tenets of veganism.

For me, the question is not whether insects experience suffering as we do, but whether they suffer at all. We can never speak in absolute certainties when considering subjective experience, and that applies to all animals, humans included. Indeed, I could not say for sure that you experience suffering (the evidence is just overwhelming that you and other animals, both human and non-human, do).

There is a lot of scientific research and evidence that suggests that insects "probably" feel pain.

Here is one example:

https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/insects ... inimise-it

"We argue that insects most likely have central nervous control over nociception, based on behavioural, molecular and anatomical neuroscience evidence. Such control is consistent with the existence of pain experience, with important implications for insect farming, conservation and their treatment in the laboratory."

You are correct that there is no consensus on this matter, but then again the scientific community doesn't have a good record on respecting non-human life.

As you point out, even if an insect didn't feel pain that does not mean we should harm them needlessly. Insects of many kinds demonstrably have rich social lives. Take flies for example, who when socially enriched have been shown to have much higher levels of dopamine than isolated flies.

Ultimately insects are out there trying to survive like us. I think we should give them the benefit of the doubt and treat them with respect.

[Johnson]

Veganism is a lifestyle and dietary choice that avoids the use of animal products or by-products. Vegans follow a plant-based diet, excluding meat, poultry, fish, dairy, eggs, and honey. They typically adopt this lifestyle for ethical, environmental, and health reasons, promoting the well-being of animals and the planet.

[Johnson]

Consider flies, which have been demonstrated to have substantially greater amounts of dopamine when socially enhanced than solitary flies.

[An jis la pou gadé]

I learned new stuff about honey, thanks Liam. I wish I would live according to my morals in the animal freedom department. I feel tired of the lack of accessibility for people who are not able to financially support themselves. I also wish it was made easy to be vegan in a systemc way... To find vegan things. To be able to afford them, too...
And for it to be produced locally in a anticolonialist anti-imperialist anti-racist anti-negrophobic way.

I am happy to be in a vegan community, here, and Am looking forward to interact with y'all and I am happy to be surrounded by people who share my values of respect.
I'm sure it's gonna have a good influence on me , and maybe help me get back on track.